Casino Guru gives Fresh-Casino a perfect reputation and rates the T&C as fair. I disagree. In my opinion, paragraph 8.6 of the T&C is not only unfair, but also probably violates the license agreement of the licensor.
8.6 You will not withhold or cancel previous transactions and deposits to your account. Otherwise, you undertake to return these funds and compensate the Company for the unplaced funds, including expenses incurred by the Company when collecting your deposits.
A player should always have the right to claim their money back should the casino make a mistake (eg violating the RG policy etc.). A casino should always have a control authority. Otherwise, Casino Guru can close immediately. Fresh Casino told me that even if the casino made a mistake and a third party (ADR / Licensing Authority) agrees with the player on something, they cannot claim back their deposited money under any circumstances. According to T&C, if the player gets his money back, he has to pay it back to the casino including fees.
I ask kindly for the opinion of Casino Guru.
Hello,
from my point of view, this rule should defend the casino in case the player requests a chargeback for instance. It strongly depends on how and when this rule is applied.
furthermore, this rule does not refer to any mistake made by the casino, as you suggested. Hence again the question of fairness depends on how the casino enforces this rule.
This is a fresh casino, so I believe that we've not witnessed this rule be applied so far, therefore we can't say it's been misused.
Allow me to say, the reply from the manager is very vague and general. She only confirmed that by registering you agree to all Terms and Conditions but she avoided commenting on the rule itself.
If you ever come across an actual problem caused by this term, we can examine the concrete situation closely and make a concrete conclusion.
Good day
Thank you for your message. I tried to explain my view and experience as precisely as possible, but apparently I didn't succeed. I apologize for that.
1. I believe that T&C should be transparent and self-explanatory. They should also not be given a different meaning depending on the individual case. This also with regard to the Codex of Casino Guru. Therefore, regardless of my case, I have objected to paragraph 8.6 as such.
2. Of course, a player cannot, for example, make deposits with his credit card, then gamble away that money and then withdraw the deposit. This is clear and rightly so.
3. Fresh-Casino has told me several times and also confirmed that this paragraph states that players have no right to claim back already deposited money by means of a complaint. Not even if the casino made mistakes or violated the license agreement or RG policy.
4, My case: I asked the casino to refund my deposits because I'm from Switzerland. While Swiss citizens are allowed to play in foreign casinos in Switzerland, it is illegal for foreign casinos to offer games. (You know the story I also know that Casino Guru cannot help me with this, as Casino Guru only intervenes when it comes to unpaid winnings.) That's not the problem. What bothers me is the reasoning of the casino. If the casino says it's my responsibility which sites I register and play money on, then I could live with that justification. But I was amazed by the reason I published in my first message. The player is not allowed to reclaim funds for whatever reason and has to give the deposits back to the casino if they are right in any case and get deposits refunded. Even if the casino has made obvious mistakes, for example? It is also questionable whether the casino should have this clause as a player can always complain to the ADR or licensing authority.
It can't be that I file a normal complaint and the casino tells me that I have no right to ask for any money back whatsoever. Every player should have the right not to be at the mercy of the casino. The casino scares and lies to the players by saying that according to 8.6 you can't file a complaint and ask for money back. The casino has said and confirmed this several times.
5. In any case, I will file a complaint against paragraph 8.6 with the licensing authority. If Casino Guru could give me his opinion on my case it would very help me. How many players wanted to file a complaint but didn't because Fresh Casino said it violated 8.6. Even if a player gets right, according to 8.6 he must pay back the money.
I ask Casino Guru to really study my screenshots carefully.
Kind regards
Dario Jablanovic
I file a complaint with the casino and they refer me to paragraph 8.6 in their article. In the context of my complaint, I have read or seen the following:
"Dario, this clause of the rules means that you undertake not to refuse previously made deposits, not to cancel operations for placing funds, not to protest the funds on which you have independently made bets. Otherwise, you undertake to compensate all costs of our side in the collection process for the return of your deposits"
"Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6. By registering on the website you confirm that you will not withhold or cancel previous transactions and deposits to your account. Otherwise, you undertake to return these funds and compensate the Company for the unplaced funds, including expenses incurred by the Company when collecting your deposits."
My question to Fresh-Casino was: "I have no right to claim back already deposited funds for any reason because of Article 8.6? If I get money back, then I have to refund it to you, including the deposit fees"
The answer of Fresh-Casino: "Dario, yes, that's right. By registering on our website, you agreed to all the terms and conditions that are presented on our website."
It is not a question of defending the casino and suspecting how paragraph 8.6 is meant. It is now mainly about how the casino explains to the players in relation to paragraphs 8.6 and specifically in which contexts applies against the player.
Casino Guru said: "furthermore, this rule does not refer to any mistake made by the casino, as you suggested". My question. How do you come to this conclusion / realization? Does Casino Guru always think that the casinos act honorably? This defensive attitude towards casinos is increasing more and more.
I am looking forward to the opinion of the Casino Guru.
I see, I have no chance of making a complaint against any casino at Antillephone N.V. enter, it will always be rejected.
I stand by my opinion:
The casino's response when I filed a T&C breach complaint was this: "Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
When I asked if I could never get my money back through a complaint, the casino said yes.
To me, this is a deliberate misrepresentation, and misstatement and application of 8.6. Highly unfair.
I understand the situation now - I hope. I read your complaint to be sure.
Well, I still think that this is not a problem of any unfair behavior.
You deliberately played - deposited in the casino knowing that this casino is not registered in Switzerland. You played and suddenly decided to ask for your deposit to be refunded because this casino is still not licensed in Switzerland, am I correct at this point?
But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
I must agree with Nick: " It all depends on the request of the player and if it's reasonable. Unfortunately, at your case you are not eligible for a refund..."
Liebe Radka
Danke, dass du meine Beschwerde nochmals gelesen hast.
You said: But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
Das ist aus meiner Sicht eine sehr gefährliche Aussage. Wir wissen alle, dass ein Casino in Gebieten nicht Spiele anbieten sollte, in denen Glücksspiele verboten sind. Das Casino sollte die Schweiz in die Liste der verbotenen Länder aufnehmen sowie sie andere dutzende Länder aus denselben Gründen auch gesperrt hat. Weil das Anbieten von Glücksspielen durch ausländische Casinos gegen das Gesetz verstösst. Du weisst, dass die Frage nach der Legalität nicht abschliessend geklärt ist, dass dies ein rechtlicher Graubereich ist und verschiedene Parteien und Gerichte die Situation anders sehen. Die Schweiz ist strikt der Meinung, dass Casinos die Schweiz auch auf die Liste der verbotenen Länder hinzufügen sollten, weil das Anbieten von ausländischem Glücksspiel in der Schweiz per Volksentscheid seit dem 1. Januar 2019 verboten ist. Ich möchte nur sagen, dass deine Aussage, dass das Casino nichts falsch gemacht hat, sehr wohlwollend gegenüber dem Casino ist und es kann sein, dass ein Gericht dies irgendwann anders sieht.
And in general, I did not violate T&C in this regard. The T&C (4.2) states: You hereby agree, confirm, and guarantee that your use of the Website services does not violate any of the applicable laws, statutes, and regulations.
Let me note something here: According to Swiss law, it is forbidden for foreign casinos to offer gambling in Switzerland and for Swiss without a license, but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos. This means that as a player I have not violated any laws and T&C.
My question in this regard: Where exactly in the T&C is it written that I am responsible for whether offering gambling is allowed in my country or not? I repeat: the use of the website is absolutely legal for Swiss, but the offer of games by casinos is not.
I know that there is a consensus on the legal situation and responsibility for gambling offers abroad. Still, I think it's important to take the patience and time to read the casino's respective T&Cs word for word in this regard. The T&C differ in this respect in many casinos and it cannot be assumed that there is a general rule/consensus. Fresh Casino's T&C only states that I will find out if I am allowed to play at the site and if my use of the site is against the law. It is nowhere in the Fresh-Casino T&C that I allow or agree or that it is my responsibility if the casino itself breaks any laws by offering gambling. (Anyway, it is legally questionable whether a person can shift responsibility to another person if the former does illegal acts. Are T&C allowed, which state that I am solely responsible for the consequences wear if another person robs a bank?)
What I want to say: Die Frage nach der Legalität ist hier bestimmt noch nicht abschliessend geklärt, aber das war nicht mein Problem, wie du weisst.
Mein Problem war: Ich reiche eine Beschwerde ein und das Casino antwortet mir, dass ich kein Recht habe eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Unabhängig von der Thematik und vom Grund, weil ich laut Casino Artikel 8.6 zugestimmt habe. Das Casino hat mir mitgeteilt:
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Das ist eine allgemeine Aussage und Regel, die nicht Bezug auf den Inhalt / Grund / Auslöser der Beschwerde nimmt. Das Casino sagt klar, dass the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms. Das Casino sagt nicht spezifisch, dass es nicht erlaubt ist, eine Beschwerde wegen der Legalität des Herkunfslandes einzureichen, sondern sagt klar, dass jede procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of th T&C of the side.
Oder wie bewertet Casino Guru diese Aussage und Anwendung des Paragraphen 8.6 durch das Casino? Ich sehe hier keine Einschränkungen betreffend Beschwerdegründe. Aber ich bin immer noch der Meinung, dass diese Äusserung den Lizenzbestimmungen widerspricht. Ein Spieler sollte immer das Recht haben to procedure for dispute of deposited funds. Ob er dann Recht erhält, ist eine andere Frage. Aber den Spielern zu sagen, dass jede Einreichung und jedes Verfahren zur Anfechtung von eingezahlten Geldern ein Verstoss gegen 8.6 ist, ist einfach nicht legal. Diese Anwendung von Paragraph 8.6 ist einfach falsch.
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Where does Article 8.6 state the reasons for which a complaint may and may not be filed? In my view, this is not stated in Article 8.6. I really ask you to check this interpretation and application of Article 8.6 by the Casino.
Thank you.
Herzliche Grüsse
Dario
I am writing again and hope that you will finally understand my request and take it seriously.
Please read the screenshots in the attachment carefully.
Jet-Casino is a sister casino of Fresh-Casino and both are licensed by Galaktika N.V. Both casinos have the same support and the exact same T&C. Word by word. I asked in Jet Casino livechat what article 8.6 means exactly. Jet Casino also confirmed to me that under no circumstances does a player have the right to lodge a complaint and request a refund. (Casino Guru told me that it always depends on the case and the situation).
Only: The woman in the live chat didn't know that I wanted to file a complaint and why.
I stand by my argument: The T&C of Galaktika N.V. are misleading and unfair. Every player should have the right to lodge a complaint with an independent body (ADR) or with the licensor. And the player must not be lied to in advance by the casino that this is not allowed under Article 8.6. This prevents players from filing complaints.
That Article 8.6 means that a player may not lodge a complaint under any circumstances was something I didn't realize when registering and reading the T&C. This is deliberate deception. Both casinos have independently told me that it is not possible for me to file a complaint for whatever reason because of 8.6.
As a result, I stand by my claims and request that my "contract" with Fresh Casino be voided due to improper use and information from T&C and reclaim my deposits in full including compensation. Otherwise, I will take further steps.
Many thanks for your response
Liebe Radka
Danke, dass du meine Beschwerde nochmals gelesen hast.
You said: But there is no reason to refund you because the casino didn't do anything wrong in my eyes.
Das ist aus meiner Sicht eine sehr gefährliche Aussage. Wir wissen alle, dass ein Casino in Gebieten nicht Spiele anbieten sollte, in denen Glücksspiele verboten sind. Das Casino sollte die Schweiz in die Liste der verbotenen Länder aufnehmen sowie sie andere dutzende Länder aus denselben Gründen auch gesperrt hat. Weil das Anbieten von Glücksspielen durch ausländische Casinos gegen das Gesetz verstösst. Du weisst, dass die Frage nach der Legalität nicht abschliessend geklärt ist, dass dies ein rechtlicher Graubereich ist und verschiedene Parteien und Gerichte die Situation anders sehen. Die Schweiz ist strikt der Meinung, dass Casinos die Schweiz auch auf die Liste der verbotenen Länder hinzufügen sollten, weil das Anbieten von ausländischem Glücksspiel in der Schweiz per Volksentscheid seit dem 1. Januar 2019 verboten ist. Ich möchte nur sagen, dass deine Aussage, dass das Casino nichts falsch gemacht hat, sehr wohlwollend gegenüber dem Casino ist und es kann sein, dass ein Gericht dies irgendwann anders sieht.
And in general, I did not violate T&C in this regard. The T&C (4.2) states: You hereby agree, confirm, and guarantee that your use of the Website services does not violate any of the applicable laws, statutes, and regulations.
Let me note something here: According to Swiss law, it is forbidden for foreign casinos to offer gambling in Switzerland and for Swiss without a license, but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos. This means that as a player I have not violated any laws and T&C.
My question in this regard: Where exactly in the T&C is it written that I am responsible for whether offering gambling is allowed in my country or not? I repeat: the use of the website is absolutely legal for Swiss, but the offer of games by casinos is not.
I know that there is a consensus on the legal situation and responsibility for gambling offers abroad. Still, I think it's important to take the patience and time to read the casino's respective T&Cs word for word in this regard. The T&C differ in this respect in many casinos and it cannot be assumed that there is a general rule/consensus. Fresh Casino's T&C only states that I will find out if I am allowed to play at the site and if my use of the site is against the law. It is nowhere in the Fresh-Casino T&C that I allow or agree or that it is my responsibility if the casino itself breaks any laws by offering gambling. (Anyway, it is legally questionable whether a person can shift responsibility to another person if the former does illegal acts. Are T&C allowed, which state that I am solely responsible for the consequences wear if another person robs a bank?)
What I want to say: Die Frage nach der Legalität ist hier bestimmt noch nicht abschliessend geklärt, aber das war nicht mein Problem, wie du weisst.
Mein Problem war: Ich reiche eine Beschwerde ein und das Casino antwortet mir, dass ich kein Recht habe eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Unabhängig von der Thematik und vom Grund, weil ich laut Casino Artikel 8.6 zugestimmt habe. Das Casino hat mir mitgeteilt:
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Das ist eine allgemeine Aussage und Regel, die nicht Bezug auf den Inhalt / Grund / Auslöser der Beschwerde nimmt. Das Casino sagt klar, dass the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms. Das Casino sagt nicht spezifisch, dass es nicht erlaubt ist, eine Beschwerde wegen der Legalität des Herkunfslandes einzureichen, sondern sagt klar, dass jede procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of th T&C of the side.
Oder wie bewertet Casino Guru diese Aussage und Anwendung des Paragraphen 8.6 durch das Casino? Ich sehe hier keine Einschränkungen betreffend Beschwerdegründe. Aber ich bin immer noch der Meinung, dass diese Äusserung den Lizenzbestimmungen widerspricht. Ein Spieler sollte immer das Recht haben to procedure for dispute of deposited funds. Ob er dann Recht erhält, ist eine andere Frage. Aber den Spielern zu sagen, dass jede Einreichung und jedes Verfahren zur Anfechtung von eingezahlten Geldern ein Verstoss gegen 8.6 ist, ist einfach nicht legal. Diese Anwendung von Paragraph 8.6 ist einfach falsch.
Please note that the procedure for dispute of deposited funds is considered a breach of the terms and conditions of the site. This is stated in paragraph 8.6."
Where does Article 8.6 state the reasons for which a complaint may and may not be filed? In my view, this is not stated in Article 8.6. I really ask you to check this interpretation and application of Article 8.6 by the Casino.
Thank you.
Herzliche Grüsse
Dario
Dear Dario,
I will get this short for both your posts at once because I do not intend to repeat myself more times than necessary.
What you still put together is legality and fairness.
Legality is a question for local authorities and court nevertheless "but it is legal for Swiss to play at foreign casinos" also means that even the casino did not violate any own terms especially if you chose to play there willingly - it was your own choice.
The casino did not make any mistake, if you are concerned, always chose a casino that is registered in Switzerland.
If you play and lose you are not entitled to any refund, that is normal. If you play and lose and then try to make chargeback because you lose and you want your money back that's not fair toward the casino.
Your situation is almost the same, don't you think?
I still believe and those screenshots confirm - in my eyes, that this rule is exactly for chargebacks made by players:
When a player asks the bank for chargeback, the casino has no chance to block this operation no matter the reason. So this rule serves as a defense.
I still agree with this "that Casino Guru told me that it always depends on the case and the situation"
Please solve the question of legality with local authorities, we serve as a mediator only.
Reply if you wish but I believe there is no point in doing so, I truly think we can't come up with anything fresh from now on.
I'm very sorry to annoy you with my posts. In any case, it seems that you always see only the good in a casino and argue that a casino always acts honestly, transparently and benevolently when it comes to T&C. I just wanted to warn the players here that paragraph 8.6 is being applied in a non-transparent and unclear and vague manner by the casino and to point out to the players that you always have the opportunity to file a complaint. Even if the casino refers to article 8.6 and says that you can't file a complaint about it for whatever reason.
Natürlich soll der Artikel dazu dienen, dass der Spieler keinen Rückzug (via Bank, Kreditkarte) von bereits getätigten Einzahlungen vornimmt. Dies zum Schutz des Casinos. Ich verstehe auch, dass Casino Guru denkt, dass der Artikel 8.6 nur diesbezüglich Gültigkeit findet.
Ich habe aber zwei verschiedene Personen von Galaktika N. V. gefragt, wie Artikel 8.6 zu verstehen ist. Beide haben mir auf Nachfrage versichert und bestätigt, dass Artikel 8.6 besagt, dass man keine Beschwerde einreichen darf. Ich habe gestern Screenshots gepostet, wo ich direkt gefragt habe:
"so no matter why I can't demand a refund back and get it. By means of a complaint, etc. Is that true?"
Die Antwort des Casinos war: ""Yes, since making deposits is only your decision and the consequenze of your action" (...) "In any case, this is a violation of the rules, Dario"
I don't understand why Radka only quotes those screenshots that are in favor of the casino and totally ignores other statements.
I also received an answer from the licensor Antillephone: Der Lizenzgeber ist nicht gleicher Meinung wie Casino Guru. Casino Guru sagt, dass Artikel 8.6 nur davor schützen soll, dass Spieler Rückbuchungen vornehmen. Der Lizenzgeber sagt aber, dass der Artikel dazu dient, unnötige Beschwerde abzuweisen und zu verhindern, vor allem wenn es um Spielsucht und legal status handelt.
Ich bleibe bei meiner Meinung: Ein Spieler sollte immer das Recht haben eine Beschwerde einzureichen und darf nicht auf Artikel 8.6 verwiesen werden und sagen, dass man kein Recht hat eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Es ist auch falsch zu sagen, dass man bei bestimmten Themen generell keine Beschwerde einreichen darf. Wie Nick von Casino Guru gesagt hat, ist jeder Fall spezifisch und individuell. Natürlich darf ich zum Beispiel eine Beschwerde einreichen, wenn ein Land auf der Website auf der Liste der verbotenen Ländern steht und ich dennoch spielen konnte. Natürlich darf ich Beschwerde einreichen wegen Spielsucht, zum Beispiel, wenn mir versichert wurde, dass ich in der ganzen Casinogruppe gesperrt bin, aber dennoch spielen durfte etc.
Ein Casino darf Spieler auf keinen Fall davon abhalten eine Beschwerde einzureichen. Egal aus welchem Grund. Die Anwendung von 8.6 durch das Casino ist höchst unfair. T&C sollten klar sein und keinen grossen Interpretationsspielraum zulassen und aussagekräftig genug sein, auch wenn ich mit meiner Registrierung den T&C zugestimmt habe.
Gestern habe ich im Schwestercasino nach Artikel 8.6 gefragt. Sie hat mir gesagt, dass es mir nicht erlaubt sei eine Beschwerde einzureichen, in der ich eine Rückerstattung meiner Einzahlungen fordere. Sie wusste aber nicht, dass ich Beschwerde einreichen möchte und weshalb.
Es geht nicht darum, wie Casino Guru den Artikel 8.6 interpretiert. Es wäre ja schön, würde er nur bei unerlaubten Rückbuchungen Anwendung finden. Es geht vor allem, wie der Artikel vom Casino gegen Spieler angewendet wird, wenn sie eine Beschwerde einreichen. Es geht auch darum, wie der Artikel vom Casino den Spielern erklärt wird.
The casino may deprive players of the hope of filing a complaint in advance by referring to Article 8.6. Most players know that you can always file a complaint, but not all. The casino is not allowed to say that the T&C says that you are not allowed to file a complaint and discourage people in advance. This is my advice to you.
Dear Dario,
I would not call this annoying, but I feel that all has been already said/written.
I empathize with your feelings and I'm happy that you put so much effort to do what you feel is correct.
We do the same.
Sadly, I can't see any point in constant debate on theoretical subjects and issues.
You submitted the complaint, that is something we can comment on. And we did already.
Furthermore,
If any player comes across this rule being used or better say misused in a practical term, only after that we can debate on what has truly happened and how the casino enforced this rule concretely, based on the submitted complaint containing arguments from both parties.
I hope you understand.
Hallo. Im Freshcasino gibt es auch einen deutschen Kundenservice über E-Mail und in Chat.
Hello and thank you for your update! I'm following the information to the proper team 👍
What about the quality of live chat or customer support, can you comment a bit? 🙂
Hallo. Sehr gut. Es werden alle Fragen zeitnah beantwortet. Ich hatte bei der ersten Einzahlung mit Bonus 800 Euro gewonnen am Freitag und Montag war das Geld auf dem Konto. Der Support war immer sehr freundlich, obwohl ich 3x nach gefragt habe ob die Auszahlung wirklich kommt. Aber alles hat bestens funktioniert. Für mich zur Zeit das Beste Casino. Liebe Grüße
Also ganz ehrlich ich weiß nicht wie das Casino so gut abschneiden konnte.1te Einzahlung war gut da lief es wie Sau.Leider zun gierig geworden.Die anderen Einzahlungen waren binnen Minuten runtergespielt trotz kleiner Einsätze.Kaum eine Chance zu Gewinnen.Finger weg
Hello,
what has happened?
Stroke of bad luck in the casino?
Hallo,
das hat mich Pech nichts zu tun.
Wenn die Spiele einfrieren oder die Internetverbindung zu langsam ist trotz 1000er Leitung oder man ohne Grund aus dem Spiel geworfen wird.
Für mich ist das pure Abzocke.
Glücksspiel ist Glücksspiel aber wenn man so offensichtlich Betrogen wird dann hat das nichts mehr mit Glücksspiel zu tun
If you're connected let's say to your wi-fi using a computer, then the best way of testing it would be to connect with your phone through the mobile internet and test the same game.
Otherwise, it's hard to say whether the issue is on yours or their side.
Hab über Handy gespielt im Wlan sowie über Mobile Daten und übers Wlan am Pc überall das selbe Problem
Sie müssen angemeldet sein, um einen Beitrag zu veröffentlichen..
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